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Titanforged in Raids and the End-Game Reward System in Legion

Опубликовано 2016-06-27 в 21:42 perculia

extremely

All gear has a base item level, and a diminishing chance to be a higher ilvl in increments of 5.

There is a max ilvl cap across all gear--around 850 for Legion launch, and going up to 895 for Nightmare.

Gear that rolls +15 ilvls above the base or higher has the Titanforged designation, instead of Warforged. Titanforged gear ranges from +15 above the base to whatever the max ilvl cap is. So in theory, an ilvl 835 LFR item has an 0.0000000001% chance to roll a +60 Titanforged ilvl 895 version.

All max level gear is part of this system, giving players the chance to find an upgrade no matter what content they do, however small that chance is.

Max Level Dungeons: 805 Normal, 825 Heroic, 840 Mythic

Raids: 835 LFR, 850 Normal, 865 Heroic, 880 Mythic

Crafted: 815, upgraded to 850 via Obliterum

World Quests: 805, reward increases based on ilvl of your current gear.

Hellfire Citadel loot is also affected by this item system in the 7.0 prepatch.

World Bosses: 860

Legendaries: 895

Order Hall Set: 810 upgraded to 840 via tokens

Watcher

There's a fair bit of confusion around how item level of end-game rewards works in Legion - understandable, since we haven't really gone into detail about how the system works, instead focusing on high-level goals and philosophies. Let me take a crack at changing that.

Scaling vs. Static Item Level - "Anything Can Happen"

This came up in the first Legion Q&A a couple of weeks ago, but in past expansions, the endgame item structure has always been defined by a rigid series of flat plateaus. In Warlords, Normal dungeon loot was Item Level 615. Heroic dungeon loot was 630. Normal Highmaul was 655. And so forth. Once you had Raid Finder gear or better, there was zero value to items from dungeons. In patch 6.2, Tanaan Jungle only offered Baleful items that could be empowered up to item level 695. If you were a Hellfire Citadel raider, setting out to do Tanaan dailies (to unlock flying, let's say), there was zero chance that anything could happen during that play session that might make your character stronger. And in a game underscored by progression, that's a shame.

In essence, Legion changes those flat item-level plateaus into peaks that taper up to a global max potential item level.

When you earn an item from nearly any endgame source (dungeon, raid, world quest, PvP strongbox, mission, etc.), it has a chance of upgrading its quality. When looking at information on your rewards in sources like the Dungeon Journal or World Quest display, you'll see these items with a "+" next to their item level, indicating this chance to upgrade (e.g. the Dungeon Journal for Heroic Legion dungeons showing "Item Level 825+").

While there's a bunch of math behind it all, this may be a useful way of thinking about it: When generated, these items have a chance to roll a +5 item level bonus. If that roll succeeds, the system rolls again for another +5 bonus. If that succeeds, it rolls again. This process continues until an upgrade roll fails or the global item-level ceiling is reached. That's it.

And so, in Legion, even if you're a raider, if your friend is looking for someone to queue Heroic dungeons, you have an extra motivation to volunteer aside from pure altruism. You probably won't get an upgrade. But you might. Anything could happen.

"Titanforged" - What's the Deal?

Titanforged is just a label that applies when an item successfully upgrades by +15 or more item levels. It isn't really an inherent part of the system itself, but rather something we added midway through development to make it clear when you just got exceptionally lucky.

RNG, Progression, and Prestige

A frequent concern with the Legion item system is that the very possibility of a Mythic-raid-quality item coming from a quest or dungeon boss cheapens those rewards. But there's a huge difference between a single Mythic-quality item and a full set of gear of that quality. A player who mainly queues for Dungeon Finder and Raid Finder may end up with a couple of great raid-quality pieces, but that's a far cry from what someone who actually does high-end raiding will look like. Ditto for someone who casually queues for BGs compared to a top-rated arena player. After all, it requires far fewer lucky breaks for a Mythic Nightmare raid drop to make it to Item Level 895 than it would for a Heroic dungeon blue, by a huge margin. Your overall gear will still reflect the type and difficulty of content that you do, but a broader range of activities can be rewarding, and a broader range of players can have moments of surprise and excitement along the way.

Another concern raised in this thread relates to the impact of randomness on competitive progression. First off, the explanation above references a "global item-level ceiling" - that's simply a cap on how far any item can upgrade, and it's a value that will be set in relation to the highest available base item levels from the most difficult available content. Once Mythic+ dungeons and the Nightmare Raid are accessible, that value will be 895 (and that's the value to which the cap is currently set in beta). But for the first couple of weeks after launch, we're planning on having a lower cap in the 850s, since there is nothing available above that base item level. In the future, as new content is introduced, the ceiling will rise accordingly. Even the very luckiest person in the world won't be walking into raids and outgearing them on day one.

Finally, we're dealing with upgrade chances on individual item slots out of 16, belonging to individual characters out of 10-30 in a raid group. A single item won't make or break your raid's success. The law of averages suggests that raid groups that complete roughly the same amount of content will end up with roughly the same item level. We feel that the system will be a significant improvement to the individual gearing experience without harming guild competition.
My main question was - will Heroic and Mythic raid gear be able to upgrade past Warforged?

entirely made-up numbersNOThypothetical, made-up numbers

Комментарий от cordell9 This is a really nice reason to keep running older content, like Mythic dungeons, especially when trying for achievements etc. Комментарий от Coldleo Titanforged.....not Demonforged.... missing the damn playing field Blizzard! Комментарий от Interest A nice way to address parallel progression concerns (an issue that's been around for a long time) and it turns out to be a little better than expected considering how bull^&*! the WoD Warforged system is. My concerns lie with the 895 cap since the 850(s) isn't so bad since players can run normal raids to always get that hard ilvl cap of gear hopefully. From what I can tell, this means players have to rely on sheer luck to get full 895s (due to legendary limitations, etc), which could stand to see improvement since that reeks of the bull$%^& WoD Warforged system.

Still hoping there's some way to consistently upgrade gear to such a hard cap with Valor or something, but that doesn't appear to be mentioned (unless I missed something). Such a system would allow for that sort of versatile upgrading that would help balance out the randomness and would make progression smoother for the unlucky while also incentivizing players to do any and all content that involves acquiring Valor (which is hopefully a variety of activities).

Edit: Overall I'm optimistic about this system, even if it feels a little ham-fisted due to the "forced cap" that technically has been around the entire time, but was less apparent previously. Комментарий от earpgore @Coldleo: Considering Legion's story line (Pillars of Creation) the "Titanforged" label fits pretty nicely. Комментарий от Menzolies So are you saying that if you do Hellfire Citadel once 7.0 hits live that there's a chance you can get titanforged item leveled gear? Комментарий от Grortraugh Seems like incentive for geared and skilled players, who would otherwise be running heroic/mythic raids, to keep running lfr/normal and increase the life of that content. It'll be interesting to see how, say, a normal difficulty pug at the start of a tier fares compared to one that ran HFC or BRF.

I expect that required item levels for groups will increase as well. Комментарий от Interest So are you saying that if you do Hellfire Citadel once 7.0 hits live that there's a chance you can get titanforged item leveled gear?Seems like incentive for geared and skilled players, who would otherwise be running heroic/mythic raids, to keep running lfr/normal and increase the life of that content. It'll be interesting to see how, say, a normal difficulty pug at the start of a tier fares compared to one that ran HFC or BRF.

I expect that required item levels for groups will increase as well.Комментарий от ZeeAUS Really like the sound of this system, should keep content relevant for longer. Комментарий от Dwarwen ilvl 835 LFR item has an 0.0000000001% chance wahahahaha soooo funny. Комментарий от frmorrison This seems like a neat system. I plan to test it in HFC in patch 7.0 or beta if I get a key in the meantime. Комментарий от Tuckletuts I don't like it. It honestly seems like they're doing the typical Blizzard thing and reacting to the extreme. WoD was all about raiding, so they're now determined to make Legion about not raiding. Tell me, what incentive is there really for players to try a harder difficulty when they can just get lucky and have a full set of Mythic-quality gear from running LFR and Normal.

I'd also point out that more RNG on gear is a terrible design. Sure it makes the content seem like it will last longer, but loot was never the reason players kept running the same raids for months and months. If anything it will just lead to a higher rate of burnout for a lot of players, and a lot will feel like they have to be running LFR in addition to their organised raid. Assuming Normal, Heroic and Mythic all have separate loot lockouts many players will also feel like they need to be running multiple difficulties.

Sure it's not mandatory, but anyone who actually cares about progression raiding will know that you do everything you can to help out your raid team. That means running multiple difficulties for that extra chance at high ilvl gear. Комментарий от Druuge Correction:
There is a max ilvl cap across all gear--around 850 for Legion launch, and going up to 895 for Nightmare, not Nighthold. Комментарий от thebouta sounds like cancer, I get catering for the casuals, but honestly it feels like blizzard is trying to force higher tier players into helping people who struggle with the game to much and need help killing lfr bosses.

the 0.000000001% incentive is to low but it's gonna force top end guild to run guild only lfr groups one raid night just because there might be a free upgrade.... but i guess there's always people who's gonna say just don't do it then, that's not how it works if you are racing for competitive ranks on the server.

Make the gear able to upgrade fine, but don't let it go past the next level of difficulty at least. Комментарий от cvkpaper so what about pvp gear? and where does gem slots fit in all of this? also will valor and upgrades be in legion. Комментарий от Interest sounds like cancer, I get catering for the casuals, but honestly it feels like blizzard is trying to force higher tier players into helping people who struggle with the game to much and need help killing lfr bosses.
the 0.000000001% incentive is to low but it's gonna force top end guild to run guild only lfr groups one raid night just because there might be a free upgrade.... but i guess there's always people who's gonna say just don't do it then, that's not how it works if you are racing for competitive ranks on the server.
Комментарий от CornbreadPops I don't like it. It honestly seems like they're doing the typical Blizzard thing and reacting to the extreme. WoD was all about raiding, so they're now determined to make Legion about not raiding. Tell me, what incentive is there really for players to try a harder difficulty when they can just get lucky and have a full set of Mythic-quality gear from running LFR and Normal.

I'd also point out that more RNG on gear is a terrible design. Sure it makes the content seem like it will last longer, but loot was never the reason players kept running the same raids for months and months. If anything it will just lead to a higher rate of burnout for a lot of players, and a lot will feel like they have to be running LFR in addition to their organised raid. Assuming Normal, Heroic and Mythic all have separate loot lockouts many players will also feel like they need to be running multiple difficulties.

Sure it's not mandatory, but anyone who actually cares about progression raiding will know that you do everything you can to help out your raid team. That means running multiple difficulties for that extra chance at high ilvl gear.Комментарий от Alterrax I don't like it. It honestly seems like they're doing the typical Blizzard thing and reacting to the extreme. WoD was all about raiding, so they're now determined to make Legion about not raiding. Tell me, what incentive is there really for players to try a harder difficulty when they can just get lucky and have a full set of Mythic-quality gear from running LFR and Normal.

I'd also point out that more RNG on gear is a terrible design. Sure it makes the content seem like it will last longer, but loot was never the reason players kept running the same raids for months and months. If anything it will just lead to a higher rate of burnout for a lot of players, and a lot will feel like they have to be running LFR in addition to their organised raid. Assuming Normal, Heroic and Mythic all have separate loot lockouts many players will also feel like they need to be running multiple difficulties.

Sure it's not mandatory, but anyone who actually cares about progression raiding will know that you do everything you can to help out your raid team. That means running multiple difficulties for that extra chance at high ilvl gear.Комментарий от thebouta People seem to forget the RNG that is in wow, i've seen ridiculous things awarded to the most undeserving of players, fine if it's one or two items then no big deal but we all know some how there will be people lucky enough to get way more then one or two items.

https://postimg.org/image/592gvve2v/

it's going to happen faster then we think. Комментарий от Trang0ul So in theory, an ilvl 835 LFR item has an 0.0000000001% chance to roll a +60 Titanforged ilvl 895 version.Комментарий от LoKHor Titanforged.....not Demonforged.... missing the damn playing field Blizzard!against

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