Chances are there are a lot more melee classes that would want this weapon than there are just hunters in a raid, but there are many more good 2-H weapons out there that are better itemized for some of these people than an agility polearm would be (probably easier to attain than this one, as well). As a hunter, I might feel bad for taking this from a druid, but seeing a paladin with it would make me cry. I have yet to see a 2-H that comes close to this one in terms of itemization for my class.

Комментарий от 561627

To Deivijs's:

The reason you are getting downrated is because not only is it a "stat" stick but also if you notice druids get "3586 feral attack power".

Hunters only use the "stats".

Комментарий от 561957

The ugly truth no matter if u like it or not is that any guild killing LK will give this pole to thier hunters first :) (and MAY be to a feral kitty dps if they have one in raid)

Комментарий от 302982

Hunter weepon!

Комментарий от 35800

While I'm normally no big fan of discussions on who should be allowed an item, it is worth noting that this is the only properly itemized weapon for hunters in ICC 25. It beats out all the options from heroic untill you're at LK again.

Комментарий от armand0

2h for a hunter means much more than a ranged weapon for melee, you can compare the difference in total stats between 2h and ranged weapons. This weapon is bis until its heroic version for mm hunters assuming they are below arp hard cap, whereas melee classes have better alternatives from heroic icc 25. "Ok" stats for melee on this weapon are actually "go-to" stats for hunters. At least you can check its name "Charge of the Ranger-General".

Комментарий от 578241

Feral > Hunter on this weapon and almost any 2H agility based weapon in the game. If a kitty and hunter are both in the raid the kitty should have priority. Hunters want their ranged weapons secure over a warrior/rogue (stat stick, dps irrelevant) then pass melee weapons (hunter stat stick, dps is irrelevant) to your melee before you become a greedy loot *expletive deleted*

"Ok" stats for melee on this weapon are actually "go-to" stats for hunters"

- I'd say that those stats are 100% itemized for a kitty considering the other 25icc weapons bloodfall/distant land which offer 0 arp (kitty's bread and butter is arp until you hardcap). Hunters have plenty of 1 handers to choose from offering arp oh wait you'd be stealing it from a rogue and can't do that if you want your ranged weapons over rogues/warriors.

A feral druid using a 1 hander is horrible unless they were pulled into content way ahead of their gear where a dagger is better then their current staff/polearm (with how blizzard hands out gear in 5mans). I'd be suprised to find a kitty that would want a 1hander though due to the massive stat loss without an offhand (go spell power on a pure physical damage class, make that fairy fire hit harder!).

Same argument as Journey's End back in Naxx, and same as then Hunters thinking they have right to every drop over any other class even though they are just after the stats vs someone who benefit from the weapon's dps (via Feral Attack Power conversion).

And a fast summery goes to Nathanyel who hit the nail on the head.

umaes: That's because warriors and rogues don't care as much about their "stat sticks" as hunters do. They pass willingly on ranged weapons until no hunter needs them anymore.

Hunters should the same way. I'll admit its a great weapon for MM hunters, but a kitty would benefit more from it then the hunter. I hope every hunter that feels they have right to a two hander over a kitty gets "Fal'inrush, Defender of Quel'thalas" taken by a rogue or warrior cause the "stats are good". Share the pain when it would be a better upgrade to you.

Комментарий от Nulgar

I'd run it through a spreadsheet before pulling the "druids benefit more" argument. Yes, they probably do, but not as much as you might think considering this is the only properly itemized hunter 2h in ICC 25

So what? Do you explicitly need an iLvl 271 stat stick to perform much better than with a 251 or, god forbid, 245 one? For what? To boost your GearScore?

Go on, run the spreadsheet. Let's pick Tainted Twig of Nordrassil as the already equipped weapon of both classes, to have similar stats. Tell us what a hunter would gain, in average 251/264 gear.
I'll even go ahead and let Rawr simulate it for my gear, admittedly with more 25man/badge than 10man items, so feel free to choose a gear setup similar to that. Additionally, I activated all possible buffs including the current 10% Hellscream.
Note that first, I downgrade to the Twig, since despite the ArP, the raw FAP on Distant Land is so much better.
Calculated Optimal Rotation DPS: 12955.53
Now, let's equip Oathbinder:
Calculated Optimal Rotation DPS: 13554.85

That's a 599,32 DPS increase from that weapon upgrade. Your turn.

Комментарий от sunnybonez

i think that this is bis for mm hunter and kitty druids

Комментарий от 35800

Using Distant Land as the equipped weapon is the entire point here. The Twig is actually a small upgrade over Distant Land to hunters. You restated my argument by saying that

...despite the ArP, the raw FAP on Distant Land is so much better.

Hersir's is a great option provided you can make use of all that hit and have a silly amount of ArP. Chances are you'll benefit more from Distant Land due to the itemlevel (read:stats) at that gear level however. It takes a lot more to make gemming ArP worthwhile than some hunters seem to think*.

Oathbinder is a key piece of equipment in the switch from gemming agi to gemming ArP as there simply isn't any other weapon available in this range to do so. The next best thing would be the Twig. The dps comparison is a bit moot as it's extremely relative to the amount of ArP you're carrying and I have no idea what you used. Simply equipping it over Distant Land using agi gems is a 170dps upgrade to me, making the switch to ArP gemming would make it close to 300 (at 1200 ArP) not forgetting that further ArP gear would be that much more powerful. 300+ probably isn't miles away from going Distant Land->Oathbinder on a druid.

*You can hardcap early on with mixing in lower level gear, but it's not actually worthwhile if you could have used 264 gear (without haste) and agi gems in those slots. Factoring in set boni vs the benefit from offset ArP pieces is a big point as well.

Комментарий от Nulgar

Cerberus:
Like I said, I used weapons with similar stats to be able to compare them more easily. Of course stats like the hit on Hersir make those weapons way less attractive if you are near or at the hit cap. I only mentioned Distant Land as the weapon I have currently equipped, but actually, it's another point for ferals: the DPS/FAP is most important in the comparison Twig<>Land, so Land wins, despite the other stats being worse. For hunters, who ignore the DPS, of course Twig is better.

Otherwise: Excuse me, what were you trying to say? So you stated again, with long words, that this weapon is BiS for hunters, which is obvious. ArP just is such an insanely good stat for all physical DDs, and the iLvl provides a good budget.
But that it's the best item in that slot for hunters does not say a thing about its relative use for ferals. Hunters simply don't make use of the weapon DPS, while ferals get Feral AP from that, in addition to the stats themselves.
So, while this weapon's stats are attractive to both classes - remember, ArP is awesome to everyone -, ferals have the added bonus of over 200 AP (+20% & +10%) even when just upgrading from an iLvl264 weapon, the next-lower iLvl tier.
So sure, it's BiS for you, but it would be like comparing a wrist upgrade to a chest upgrade, e.g. if both were available for X badges. Both are massive upgrades in their slots, but the chest would give you way more absolute stats, because chests have more stats than bracers. And yes, melee weapon slot definitely has a different weight for hunters than it has for melees.
By your logic, rogues would have a similar claim on Fal'inrush, because "it has ArP" and is BiS, too - Rawr actually says Stakethrower (heroic 10man) is slightly better (besides of course heroic Fal'inrush, analogous to heroic Oathbinder) but let's just assume it is truly BiS.
And don't downplay that argument because ranged weapons have less stats than 2Hs, it's the relative gain that counts: say hunters gain 10 points from the bow while a rogue gains 2, while for the 2H the hunter gains 5 - but the feral gains 10. 10>2 and 10>5, both statements are correct.

The dps comparison is a bit moot as it's extremely relative to the amount of ArP you're carrying

In Rawr, I crippled my ArP value by replacing all sockets with Agi, replacing nonset items that have ArP with ones without it, and without switching in an ArP proc trinket, and it still says Oathbinder is a 530 DPS upgrade over Twig, which is not that far below the 599 I mentioned above. I told you, the stats themselves don't matter that much to ferals when there's such an insane gain of FAP.
Feral attack power is just another way to express raw weapon DPS for druids in forms, it had been like this since late Vanilla, it only became more obvious in 3.0.8, and as any other 2H (say: plate) melee will tell you, when looking at weapons, DPS is still the most important thing. (This is also why Betrayer was way BiS in 3.0.X despite the Agi and AP)
Even if those 115 ArP totally define the Agi>ArP switch (since ICC Mail has no ArP at all) and you would exchange all sockets after obtaining this weapon, I doubt you could show me a spreadsheet or other calculation where this weapon would grant you a DPS increase that large.

Or in short: BiS for you? Great, but it's "more BiS" for that other guy.

Комментарий от 35800

First of all, I'm not trying to make any claims that hunters should get this item instead of druids or that hunters benefit more than druids. Druids have a bigger net gain in dps from this weapon.

The key point of this discussion is the gain druids have from feral AP and that they have a weapon at 264 that works well for them while hunters don't. In very simple terms, the gain from this 2H is a lot higher for a hunter than in your typical druid vs hunter situation as hunters have no other viable options from ICC 25. The gain from ArP on additional upgrades becomes that much more powerful to the point where the difference between what a druid and hunter gains becomes negligible (druids have a fairly easy time capping ArP even on normal).

And don't downplay that argument because ranged weapons have less stats than 2Hs, it's the relative gain that counts: say hunters gain 10 points from the bow while a rogue gains 2, while for the 2H the hunter gains 5 - but the feral gains 10. 10>2 and 10>5, both statements are correct.

So a rogue gains a fifth of what a hunter would gain and a hunter gains half of what a druid would gain in the respective scenarios? I'm sorry, but you're contradicting yourself if you're talking about relative gains. The other point here is that a hunter might start at gaining half and end up pretty much 1:1 with the druid.

Комментарий от Nulgar

Druids have a bigger net gain in dps from this weapon.

You say that, but you don't seem to understand it.

The key point of this discussion is the gain druids have from feral AP and that they have a weapon at 264 that works well for them while hunters don't.

Well, this isn't a 264 weapon. This is a 271 weapon. This means 230 more FAP than a 264 weapon, and of course a better stat budget, which also includes ArP, a stat that, as surprising as that may be to you, is also very, very beneficial to cats as well. So ferals have a similar need for these stats, plus the FAP gain.

The other point here is that a hunter might start at gaining half and end up pretty much 1:1 with the druid.

I repeat my previous request: show me a spreadsheet or something similar that proves this. Even if it is a totally unrealistic constellation of gear. You need to show that upgrading from any (applicable) WotLK epic polearm/staff to this weapon grants 600 DPS, a value which a feral roughly gains when upgrading from 258 to 271.

Комментарий от 133764

This dropped twice on the same kill yesterday.

Комментарий от 259957

If any of you guys hopped over to EJ's pally forum and checked out its ret pally BiS list for 3.3, you will find a general weapon ranking in it...guess where this weapon lies?...............................yea, this is THE BiS weapon a ret pally can get unless he/she can get shadowmourn...

For people who don't know much about ret pally dps, we get more physical crit out of agi than everyone except mages.

So hunters...don't get mad when melee dps rolls on this weapon, blame blizz for their itemization flaws. Had they lower the weapon speed to like 2.4 or even 3.0, everything would be "working as intended". As for now, EJ's BiS list tells ret pallys out there to get their hands on this even if Глоренцельг, священный клинок Серебряной Длани is available.

Комментарий от 469956

@Twilightstar

EJ's BiS list tells ret pallys out there to get their hands on this even if Глоренцельг, священный клинок Серебряной Длани is available.

Reallly? That's funny, since I'm looking at this BiS list for 3.3, and it says that Glorenzelg is the best, second only to (of course) Shadowmourne.

So yes, hunters/feral druids will be mad if a Ret paladin rolls on this. It's not their gear. Sure, it has your stats, but that's like saying hunter's should roll on rogue leather because it has their stats on it.

Комментарий от Rilgon

You need to show that upgrading from any (applicable) WotLK epic polearm/staff to this weapon grants 600 DPS, a value which a feral roughly gains when upgrading from 258 to 271.

The jump from Heroic Lupine Longstaff to Oathbinder is about 300-ish DPS for a MM Hunter.

My query is, why doesn't/can't the Feral Druid have the abysmally-itemized-for-MM Distant Land already? (which is a single-digit DPS gain, if a gain at all, for a MM Hunter)

Комментарий от Rilgon

On the other hand, both druids and hunters has access to upgrades from fairly easy heroic bosses

Excuse me? There isn't a single upgrade from Oathbinder except for Heroic Oathbinder for a MM Hunter.

Комментарий от faerogue

That's because warriors and rogues don't care as much about their "stat sticks" as hunters do. They pass willingly on ranged weapons until no hunter needs them anymore. Sadly hunters don't act the same with druids.

There's a fairly simple explanation for that, warriors and rogues (and every other class for that matter) can purchase serviceable loot for the ranged slot with emblems, while hunters are at the mercy of the loot gods for both their main weapon and their stat stick.

Комментарий от 618001

In my guild we had the same discussion, it was originally going to Kitties dps first then hunters. All of the hunters agreed and presented this scenario to the guild since we are all ArP Marks. No hunter is rolling on h Bloodfall/Distant Land we would rather get dibs on this. The druids were under the impression we wanted either of the other two and would vendor this when we had the chance. Once we explained that this was #3 for us with the only ups being HM Lich 10 or HM Lich 25, the druids agreed to pass on the item. Guess what? One hunter has this, and both druids have 277 Bloodfall and Distant Land, everyone is happy. One hunter has taken H Distant Land as he was not a Rank 1 raider and was still using a 245 2-hand, of course this was after the ferals had theirs.

TLDR: Talk it out with the classes involved and see what x class will likely replace the non-HM Oathbinder with and decide from there what is best for your raids ability to down Hard modes as to who gets priority.

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